63Last night I stumbled upon a discussion that kind of unsettled me. It had less to do with someone’s critique of Into Darkness and more to do with AOS-bashing in general. I think I ought to address this from the perspective of someone who enjoys the original series as well as the reboot.
Really – why so upset, people? Don’t you know the point of an “alternate universe” is to be different?
Believe me, I know how awesome TOS is. If I had to pick between a visit from DeForest’s McCoy and Karl’s McCoy – wait, bad example. I’d want them both.
Or maybe that’s not a bad example at all. You see, neither McCoy is completely like the other and yet I am able to love them equally. TOS!McCoy is very charismatic, if you think about it, because DeForest Kelley had the ability to steal a scene with his funny wit and his enthusiasm for acting like a true ‘old country doctor’ in space. AOS!McCoy is more raw and though I don’t think Abrams has given Karl a scene yet to showcase the full range of his acting abilities, Karl brings us a Leonard McCoy we can all relate to in terms of RL struggles as well as a man we can laugh alongside. He’s as prickly as his counterpart but also clearly just as unable to keep to himself from joining the rest of the crew on an adventure. Age may be a relative factor but it doesn’t set them too far apart. I have a feeling the two doctors would get along immensely if they ever met.
But I digress. This is about understanding why AOS is something so brilliant that it can be loved by old-schoolers – and more than that, how it can convince someone like me to BECOME an old-schooler. Like much of my generation, I had no inclination to see something as ‘stupid’ and ‘silly’ as a show from the 1960s. I mean, awful props, awful clothes and worse hair-dos. What could have enamored my parents so? And weren’t Mom and Dad outdated in their tastes anyway?
As you can see, I might be playing this up a bit, but there was a time when I just didn’t get the fascination with the Star Trek franchise.
I didn’t get it, that is, until JJ Abrams decided to direct a movie that modernized it. I sat through that movie thinking, wow, this concept is pretty cool and these characters are pretty cool too, something the very first fans had to have thought themselves so many decades ago. It put me in the right mindset to dive into what spawned a nearly five-decade old fandom and watch the original episodes. When I did, I understood what it was that made TOS the one of the most beloved shows in television history. I had only been watching a newer, grittier version in the movie theater.
And let me tell you, I will be forever grateful to the Abramsverse for opening my eyes.
That isn’t to say JJ can do no wrong. He isn’t a fan of Star Trek, and once and a while that fact almost slaps us in the face, particularly in the moments where it’s apparent those things which are iconic-ly Star Trek may not be sacred to JJ. On the flip-side, though, if he wanted to make a homage to another man’s work instead of a creation he could consider as all his own, he wouldn’t have dared present a universe as brazen as what we saw in Star Trek 2009. I mean, the Vulcan homeworld is destroyed within the first hour of the movie. That says it all.
I’m of the opinion JJ wanted to take a well-established franchise and see how far he could push things; along this vein, he took Roddenberry’s very imaginative universe and tried to flip it into something that is as, if not more, imaginative. Admittedly, sometimes he goes too far. When that’s the case, I tend to ignore what I don’t like. For instance, Pike isn’t dead. McCoy isn’t from Mississippi. Christine Chapel never transferred off the Enterprise. So on and so forth.
My point is, you can’t expect something which is supposed to be ‘alternate’ to stay the same as what you know. Sure, we all have our limits as to how far we’re willing to follow him off-the-beaten-path. And, sure, we can get a little upset when those limits are tested…
But it is possible to be a die-hard TOS fan and still enjoy somebody else’s vision of Star Trek. Otherwise, why would any of us read fanfiction – or write it for that matter? Why would we love a show that propagates open-mindedness, yet refuse to be open-minded ourselves?
I’ve mentioned before that Into Darkness initially upset me – but that has everything to do with two specific expectations I had walking into that theater (I see now that was a mistake on my part), and neither of those expectations had anything to do with thinking I was going to see a strictly TOS movie. It was, of course, lovely to have it validated that the TOS feeling is present in the Abramsverse (especially during the first scene! yay for the ‘planet survey, what’s that? we’re gonna have to get involved‘ mentality), because there’s nothing I like more than a mesh of the two. But above all, I enjoyed the things that are unique to the alternate ‘verse, foremost among those being the fact that everyone is so untested by the kinds of the challenges they are likely to face as part of Starfleet. That means we get to see their journey from the very beginning and, hopefully, watch them walk the path that, whether by right or by destiny, is theirs, even though that path has certainly had, and will continue to have, its tumultuous ups-and-downs.
Do I believe AOS undermines the very tenets of Star Trek? No, I don’t. I just think it is taking us – and the characters – a while to discover that those tenets still exist. It’s about the struggle to ensure that they continue to exist when darkness seems imminent.
Sigh.
Have I blabbered on enough? Do I make a little bit of sense?
Can we all just try to embrace IDIC first before throwing ourselves into the black abyss of hate?
KLMeri out.
Related Posts:
- A Good Thought – from February 20, 2013
- STXII – from December 2, 2012
Thank you! The criticism of the new film that pisses me off the most is “Kirk wouldn’t do that, he wouldn’t act that way.” Excuse me, TOS Kirk and AOS Kirk are not the same people at this point. Pine’s Kirk is a damaged 26 year old who’s been flying on blind luck for years, which makes for very different choices than Shatner’s Kirk, who at this point would have been thirty something, with years of Starfleet experience and the benefits of a solid family upbringing behind him. It annoys me when they point at AOS Kirk’s lying and rule-breaking and immaturity and call it out of character. *sigh* The whole point of the alternate time line is taking this crew on a different path. Yes, some things will remain the same — there’s no reason to assume that Khan wouldn’t have existed in the alternate time given that he originated 300 years before the rift — but the core characters are going to approach things differently because they *are* different. Kirk has that difficult upbringing, Spock saw his mother die and watched the destruction of his planet, etc. I understand people being upset at the casting of Cumberbatch as Khan, on racial lines, and I get people annoyed with some of the scientific handwaving (though really, is TOS that scientifically sound? I don’t think so), but it annoys me when they just willfully ignore the way the story has been set up and declare it wrong. They don’t have to like J.J.’s approach, but that doesn’t make it invalid within the parameters he’s set. Er… yeah. You can see this has been weighing on me all weekend. :D
That’s the thing… anybody who understood AOS!Kirk recognized right away that he was exactly in-character. He was doing all those things we’d seen him do in the first movie and, yeah, until he learned why he needed to act differently (Pike said it all in one very blistering lecture), he wasn’t going to morph overnight into the Kirk we think he should be. Truthfully I love him just the way he is. And I’m damn proud that he can mature yet still keep his core beliefs the same. I can extend what I am talking about here to Spock, too: I also appreciate Spock the way he is. Granted, sometimes his outbreaks or his mannerisms make it difficult for me but that’s only because I want to see the TOS!Spock in him so badly. (Maybe I’m half in-love with that Vulcan; not sure.) It doesn’t mean I don’t understand what motivates this Spock. In fact I understand him all too well. Grief is a terrible, terrible thing. It can make the best – and most logical – of us irrational. Multiple the death of a loved one by a few billion… Yeah. Now the upset over the casting of Cumberbatch I don’t get. If anyone could play a cold, calculating, too-intelligent villain, it’s Cumberbatch. I mean, BBC’s Sherlock ain’t a saint, you know what I’m saying? And if race comes into it, I’m just going to smack myself on the forehead. Case in point – Klingons, anybody? Black or white, take your damn pick. They’re Klingons – you’ll recognize them by their manner, not their looks! For me, the two Khans are incomparable as far as who’s better. Space Seed Khan has a magnetism that blindsides people, the kind that means when people aren’t hating him, they love him. Into Darkness Khan is a man on a mission who behaves without ceremony because he hasn’t the time for anything else. I have no doubt they both accurately portray a facet of who Khan Noonien Singh is. And let me ask, which is scarier – the guy willing to give you some illusion of fair play, or the one with your destruction written all over his face? :) I know I don’t need to convince you of anything. You are exactly right: JJ’s approach should not be discounted on the basis that it doesn’t fit a mold. That’s what I am trying to get at – different may not be better than what we’ve known, but it can still be good!
I love this Spock too, and it definitely is the same thing as with Kirk. He’s coming from a very different place than Nimoy’s Spock. Just his speech about never wanting to feel what he felt when Vulcan was destroyed — it shows how much harder he’s been working to ignore his human emotions. Kirk telling him, or trying to, that he needs his human side to understand Kirk’s own behavior… that doesn’t really sink in for Spock until Kirk sacrifices himself. And if race comes into it, I’m just going to smack myself on the forehead. Case in point – Klingons, anybody? Black or white, take your damn pick. They’re Klingons – you’ll recognize them by their manner, not their looks! Oh I know. And please, just because Ricardo Montelban wasn’t all pasty white, doesn’t mean he was the proper ethnicity to go with that name, either. Frankly, I thought it was telling that no one referred to Khan by his full name until we got to TOS Spock, and of course *he* would. I thought Cumberbatch made a fabulous villain. He hit the right note between superior and sympathetic and just plain scary. But also, I felt like he fit without stealing the show, which I’d been a bit concerned about going in.
I think we’re all looking for a little bit of Nimoy!Spock in Quinto!Spock, because Nimoy!Spock is a sexy beast. <3
Agreed!
I agree that Benedict is a beautiful actor to cast for the character. The race issue comes in the form of whitewashing. There are not many iconic Mexican actors in American pop culture. Taking one of the few most well known characters and casting a white actor takes away from that, diminishes the forward motion of the American people. It wouldn’t be an issue if racial equality weren’t an issue but it still is so the casting, as a race problem, is a problem. For me though, it’s a small one and one that only slightly annoys me.
That makes sense to me. I guess, because like you it’s a small problem to me, I don’t think about it really. I’m more concerned with whether or not an actor can deliver a good performance. I mentioned below that, given Uhura and Sulu were cast in the same ethnic groups, there must be some awareness of this racial factor. Sadly, somebody’s always on the losing end of that…
Yup, but like I said farther down, at least there’s some progress. I’m not saying it’s enough but it’s a start. The fact that any exist in big Hollywood is something. As long as we can hold on to where we are and move forward from there I can have hope that Rodenberry’s dream is possible.
Hey poke me later tonite to remind me to chime in here when I’m not typing on a phone. :)
I definitely will. I am interested to see what you have to say since, like me, TOS holds a very dear place in your heart.
I love this post. What many fans and critics seem to blithely overlook is the fact that this timeline was created as alternate so it could avoid the trap of trying to re-make TOS which simply cannot be replaced. I thought it was an ingenius way of getting around that problem of trying to remake something that is already excellent. It also allows me, the viewer, to go to the movie without expectations that it must be just like TOS, but instead I get a refreshing new viewpoint. Fans do it all the time in fanfic. This is like gigantic blockbuster a/u fanfic that rocks. It created an alternate timeline so this new version can be enjoyed right alongside the old, not instead of or exclusive of, but as “part” of without destroying the first but at the same time able to pay homage and tribute to the genius of the first on multiple fronts from acting to plot to little slice of life details. These two timelines can co-exist without disrespect to each other. What’s the problem?
…this new version can be enjoyed right alongside the old Precisely. You asked what the problem is – and the problem is people. People who don’t want to think that there can be something as good as their all-time favorite without it being 99.9% the same. Frankly, I wouldn’t be surprised if a couple of decades from now AOS is as popular – or more so – than TOS. You know there will be fans going to the conventions dressed up as Spock and they’ll argue among themselves: “I’m nu!Spock.” “I see… however, I am Spock Prime. It is most illogical that we should co-exist in the same space-time continuum. I request you remove your presence at once.” Ah, people.
“I’m nu!Spock.” “I see… however, I am Spock Prime. It is most illogical that we should co-exist in the same space-time continuum. I request you remove your presence at once.” Hahahahah. Too true!
I love them both as well. TOS is remarkable considering it was made in the 60s. I grew up watching reruns. The AOS version keeps the core essence of the characters while taking into account that Nero and Ambassador Spock’s entry through the black hole changed the events of their lives and consequently their personalities and the way they react to certain situations. I was disappointed the first time I saw the movie. With all the obfuscating by JJ and company, I was expecting an original character. I was thinking John Harrison was some kind of rogue Section 31 agent seeking revenge for a perceived wrong done to him by Starfleet. That he turns out to be Khan does make sense, though, because the comic books did reboot several TOS episodes. I liked the movie so much more the second time I saw it and now I really want to see it again. I’m going to be sad every time I read a Pike story now, although I think yours will be okay since they mostly AUs. I could never not read your Pike stories.
You and I went into the movie with one of the exact same expectations, then. It’s not that I minded the villain being Khan (I will even praise Cumberbatch for a job well-done), it’s that I was under the impression it wouldn’t be. Call me childish if you wish, but I don’t like being lied to. That took the joy right out of the reveal for me. Luckily that disappointment didn’t come back to haunt me twice. I enjoyed my second viewing of the movie. Ditto about Pike. Though I will insist he isn’t dead and maybe Admiral Marcus felt guilty enough to gave Pike some “super blood” (ha, like Marcus knew the meaning of guilt, I know), unfortunately I’m afraid I might never feel comfortable writing another Pike story if it isn’t a complete AU.
Yes, all of this yes. And ultimately, I can’t fault anything with AOS. Gene Roddenberry said it himself in a clip that was included his son’s documentary “Trek Nation” – he wanted someone to someday remake Star Trek with a “hot young cast” and make it more presentable to the masses. Sure it took some changes Roddenberry wouldn’t have liked at all. Star Trek was the man’s brain child. But reimagining this world? Brought me into it. I was always a TNG fan, but never a fan of the original series. Now? I love both TOS and AOS. We still have the epic friendships, the fluffy good feelings of a strong bridge crew. Spreading good morals, but also love for individuals as well. Like the TOS, as shiny as AOS is, it’s still a production. You can still say “hey those things on the bridge are actually straight up price scanners” just as well as you can say “that alien is a dog in a costume” I hope hope hope so much that new movies get another follow up. Preferably NOT in many years. I’m going to continue to love it, even if some people are haters. But I’ve even seen groups who were rabid before it came out, turn around and say it was actually pretty good. SO yeah.
I can tell you the next movie is planned for 2016 on the 50th anniversary of the ST fandom. A three-year wait is in order. :/ Sorry to be the bearer of bad news! So we’re alike in that Star Trek 2009 led us to TOS. Awesome! I think that is a great compliment to the movie itself, because it made us want to know more about where it was based from, not just more about the “alternate” crew in particular.
Aww man, at least there is another movie planned. Plus there’s reruns and the new Sherlock and the next Hobbit. I’ll survive on some kind of fandom.. and fanfiction. Absolutely! And can you imagine any other series (other than maybe Doctor Who) that has done that for fans?
Heh. I would say every fandom I’ve ever been in that originated somewhere other than it’s popular tv/movie version – but that’s because I have to know everything about a universe once I’m interested. What all of this practically useless knowledge garners me, I don’t know, except the realization that I can be sadly obsessive.
In the spirit of full disclosure,after I saw the movie for the first time, I was left feeling very unsettled. I saw the movie for a second time and felt somewhat better afterwards, but then I started to feel unsettled yet again. I decided that I really needed to come to terms with what it was that I found so unsettling. After almost a week of thought, I have concluded that if I focus on the movie as a whole I feel much better overally. Then I take small parts of the movies..scenes..that I really enjoyed and I felt even better. That being said,I grew up watching TOS first runs..The Shat was the man..one of my first crushes..lol. To be honest I didn’t see Trek 09 in the theaters because I figured that there was only one Kirk and I wouldn’t be accepting of a nu-verse Kirk. I love both TOS and AOS. I can do this because I treat them as two separate entities. I do compare the characters but only in a kind spirited way. I love AOS because, for me, it gives me a window into parts of their life that I never got with TOS. I enjoy seeing the younger versions of the characters I love. I don’t understand the animosity that is shown to either TOS or AOS. I’m not a purist so I can’t speak for the scientific why’s and what for’s..or how accurate the science actually is.. I loved Star Trek because of its characters. Whether they are the mature TOS or the younger AOS I love them both because they are both a mismash of each other. For me Star Trek is all about the characters and their interactions with each other..I just don’t get the need to speak unfavorably about anyone’s choices of which versions they choose. I don’t know if I got my point across or not..but basically its “play nice kids”. P.S. that’s what fanfiction is for…fix the parts you don’t like…rewrite the ending..etc.
Purist is a term that makes me cringe. As much as I love TOS, I don’t ever want to be thought of in that way! I’m not surprised your feelings are wavering as they are, because when you are very much invested in a love, disappointment is difficult to forget once you’ve experienced it. I feel better about the movie now than I did a week ago, but to say I’m at peace with it might never come true for me. Maybe I’ve learned a need for clinical detachment? It’s like natashasolten said – it’s one big blockbuster AU! Though, JJ needs to learn which AUs are a little hard for us to swallow, doesn’t he? Like the ones where he kills Pike for the sake of plot. All hail fanfiction! It’s gonna fixed by many someones, don’t you worry about that.
No worries..I would never deem you a purist. I like -it’s one big blockbuster AU…and as I read the new fanfiction I am starting to feel better as I will just take these as my ‘version” of events Denial can be a wonderful thing….lol
I have to preface what I’m about to say with the acknowledgement that I have only seen the new movie once. I will be seeing it again. This weekend in 2D so that I can appreciate the details and not be overawed by IMAX and 3D. Having said that, I’m a *huge* fan of AOS. I argued vehemently for Star Trek XI at Dragon*Con in 2010 against the fanboy haters. I defended the story, the villain, even the destruction of Vulcan. I defended the casting and the characters, because I loved them almost instantly. I saw them as so young and raw, but with so much potential. I think my love and my hope and my expectations were why I was so very, very disappointed in Star Trek XII. Let me just state a few things why BC as Khan disturbed me so very much. First, whitewashing does matter. My kids “pass” because they are blue-eyed and fair skinned, but their cousins do not. I want to see brown-skinned people on the screen so my kids know that all of who they are matters and not just the Anglo-Saxon part. It’s all said so much better here: Star Trek Into Whiteness Second, I am not convinced that BC even needed to be Khan to tell this story. He played a violent thug and not a man made to be King. And yes, maybe seeing Ricardo Montalban play Khan in Space Seed when I was eight unduly influenced me. But I believed then, and still do, that his character was a charismatic leader of men, that this was a man like Hitler and Stalin that could convince whole countries to follow him. I did not, not once, believe that of BC’s version. There are many, many good, even great things about this movie. The major point is that the actors were brilliant. Taking lines and situations that shouldn’t have worked and they made them do so. But for every Uhura striding up to those Klingons there was Carol Marcus stripping in the shuttle. For every Scotty stands on his principles and resigns there’s a Kirk slept with Chapel and ran her off and he doesn’t even remember her moment. I have been watching Star Trek since I can remember, easily over forty years. I love Star Trek and all its imperfections with all my heart. But I feel like Star Trek XII was made by people who not only loudly admit they don’t even like Star Trek, but who didn’t even bother to learn who the characters are. This is not about AOS versus TOS. This is about JJ Abrams and company turning Bones into a walking-talking one-liner and not caring that he’s the heart of the crew. He would have been the one arguing to save Khan while Spock would have been questioning why Marcus wanted him dead. So many things I could comment on. I really, truly wish that I had loved it. I wanted to love it. I still do. I’m just not sure that this movie can manage it, though. *sigh* I really didn’t mean for this to be so long. I do hope that I have been respectful in your journal. And I am absolutely thrilled when others love it. I just can’t.
I think this is a fair post. I don’t argue any points, but none keep me from loving it…whatever that says about me…. I wonder what might happen if they got some female screenwriters next time around but I’m almost afraid to say for fear of sounding “reverse sexist” as if women can’t be sexist as well.
I’ve been trying to keep my rants to IM or personal e-mail because I don’t want to take away anyone else’s enjoyment of this movie. I want it to succeed so they’ll be another one with, I hope, a different director and set of writers. I really want these movies to do well with wider audiences so they’ll draw folks into the whole Star Trek world and maybe give us a new television series. TBH, I don’t believe there is such a thing as “reverse sexism”. I just don’t see how that’s possible when everything is still a male dominated environment. How can a woman be sexist? Women are still the underdogs. We’re still paid less than men, still get raped in astounding numbers, still have our personal health decisions taken out of hands, still lose out in the boardroom, in politics, in any positions of power. Even in this movie, that command meeting had how many women? Was there more than one? Sorry. I don’t mean to be all ranty. I am sensitive about this subject especially because I see terms like “reverse sexism” and “reverse racism” bandied about and it’s always done by those in power (i.e. white men) who are doing it to keep us in our place, make us doubt what we’re seeing with our own eyes, not because it actually *is* a thing. UGH. I’m really not such a grumpy, McGrumperson. :D
I meant that I have seen female writers fall into the trap of writing females as housewives, nurses, etc., not Starfleet captains. And I have seen female writers include gratuitous female nudity in tv and movies. The problems are not necessarily solved by getting female writers…but there’s chance, perhaps. I don’t like generalizations of groups or any labels but most of the world operates, still, in that program.
Oh, yes. Yes, that’s true. I live among women who are complicit in ensuring that their daughters remain second class citizens. There’s no doubt that women are contributing to the problem. I just put forth the idea that that’s their method of coping, which is harmful to themselves, but they don’t actually have the power to begin with. That’s all. :D
*hugs* WN, I feel your pain, even if I don’t feel it to the degree that you do. Just know that you are not alone. You pointed out many things that hurt me to watch/hear too, especially the fact that McCoy’s longest scene was the first one and his presence was nominal at best, unless he was needed to save someone. Also, Chapel being cast aside so easily because it’s a well-known name as a person loved and left behind by Jim Kirk. I felt unhappy about several of things – written into the script as if carelessly – and grieved for all of them like you. So when I say I didn’t go into the movie expecting TOS at its best, I mean I didn’t expect to see the characters mimicking their counterparts to an uncanny degree because they are, in fact, shaped by a unique circumstance. But it’s a fine line of difference between what I didn’t expect and what I hoped in my heart to see – like, you said, the true essence of what makes the characters themselves. They focused on doing this for Kirk but not anyone else. I feel like that could have been done, but it was put aside in order for us to get through the action. Alas, if there was only more screen time… and people writing the script who knew the characters down to their very thoughts and battled to bring that through. You won’t hear me claim Into Darkness was a great movie for that reason. The movie would hit on something perfectly (Scotty, for instance) but miss at the next pass. Sad, indeed. There will be a few things I incorporate from the movie into my head!canon, but at this point I doubt I’ll write many one-shots based off of it. The good news is it’s an “in-between” storyline – between, that is, the Nero Incident and the five-year mission. We can just skip straight to the five-year mission if we want!
Sorry, I forgot to address this: the villain didn’t have to be Khan – whole-hearted agreement here! I would have been satisfied with an OC that somehow still ended with Kirk having to make a sacrifice play in some form or another. I doubt I will ever understand why JJ felt he had to use Khan.
While I will forever love Benedict Cumberbatch simply because the man’s voice is amaaaa~zing and I’m a Sherlock fan, I do wholeheartedly agree that he didn’t need to be Khan; and in a way, I was also disappointed in that, because it pretty much gave away the entire rest of the movie for me. He could have just played some futuristic terrorist involved in genetic experimentation and just that small change would probably have been far more intriguing and less controversial. Actually, now that I think about it, the movie was really just like a giant, blockbuster-sized fanfic, wasn’t it? Not that that’s a bad thing, for pathetic little fangirls like me, but at the same time we do tend to expect better, don’t we. *ponders this*
It is fanfiction, but then again isn’t that the concept of AUs? Semantics, semantics. My basic theory is JJ gets to give us his AU because he’s in a position to film it and we’re not. So definitely that doesn’t make his version the end-all, be-all as far as alternate universes go. And while he was pretty imaginative as to how he went about creating his AU – I’ll grant him that – he might have infused it with a little more love for hallmarks of Trek. :) Of course, in his mind he’s making an action movie from a profitable franchise. His priorities wouldn’t be the same as, say, Leonard Nimoy’s if that wonderful man had decided to direct it!
I think BC acted his heart out, all of the actors did, really. But we’ve all read better, more original fan fiction than this script. And maybe that’s the reason I was so disappointed. (If I’m stepping into a conversation, sorry. I can never tell which message is a reply and which is a top-level comment.)
*hugs* I really didn’t want to rant in your journal. I’m still just processing my sadness, really. Honestly, I *loved* the last movie and I had such high hopes for this one. Too high, obviously. I think the over arching problem that I have with the movie is less the little points and the fact that it felt less like a Star Trek movie and move like a big-budget action movie with a checklist of Star Trek things tacked on. Kirk as womanizer. Check. Spock as emotionless android. Check. Bones as one-line, snark deliverer. Check. Kirk nemesis. Check. Klingons. Check. But the problem with those check marks and the whole script was that they just didn’t get the underlying heart of the characters. Kirk is not a rabid, uncaring womanizer. He’s a gleeful omnisexual who would never have sex with someone that it would hurt them to the point that they had to flee across the galaxy. And he *never* had sex with someone on his crew. For all that I wanted more of who Bones really is (the heart and soul of the triad), Spock is the character that bugs me the most. He was insubordinate to Pike. He went behind his captain’s back and submitted a report. He, Spock, argued for ignoring Marcus’ orders when that’s never his default. He always asks why were those orders given, to make Kirk think, to make us think. Bones should have been the one arguing for keeping John Harrison alive. But worst of all was that scene. Where was Bones? Why on earth would the chief medical officer not be there? The acting captain was off the bridge while the ship was in danger, but the CMO doesn’t show? And then Spock cries and, even worse, he screams. *sigh* Utterly out of character moment. Ruined the intensity of that scene. There was no quiet desperation. No heartfelt loss. It was turned into a caricature of grief. I honestly think I could have enjoyed the movie and come out of it heaps better if *that* scene had been done with more care and more love for the characters. I can forgive a lot, but that scene broke my heart and not because I already knew how they’d “fix it” because the script was so badly written that the culminating plot device was given away in the second scene. Geez. And there I go again. Sorry. I have waaaay too many feelings about this. Seriously. I need to just stop. Thank you for allowing me to dump all this here.
I honestly think I could have enjoyed the movie and come out of it heaps better if *that* scene had been done with more care and more love for the characters. Absolutely. As I said somewhere below (gosh, so many comments and threads, lol!), I am of the firm belief that if the “KHHAAANNN!” moment wasn’t a hallmark of TWOK, the screen writers would have never considered it as a reaction for a Vulcan. It doesn’t fit, not to mention Kirk and Spock aren’t even at a point where they have a solid, well-rooted friendship to make the reaction plausible. -sigh- It’s never a good thing if a viewer winces at the end of a tragic death scene. There should be tears in the eyes, not cringing, yes? WN, my respect for you knows no bounds. You are always welcome to speak your mind here. And you’ve said nothing I would fault you for. Into Darkness was a movie we all had high hopes for because its purpose should be to help carry us through the next three years. Well, maybe it hasn’t done that… but I believe our love for ST is strong enough that we can go on without it. :)
Wow. I just had to jump in and say that your comments about your children and their cousins really put the whitewashing of Khan into perspective for me. I acknowledged intellectually that whitewashing is bad, but that really brings it down to a personal level for me. I’m half Japanese and grumble about how Asians are interchangeable in Hollywood, but at least they are Asian. I find it interesting that Damon Lindelof has addressed the gratuitous fan service of women in underwear in the AOS movies, but nothing has been said about the whitewashing.
Yes, what WN said does kind of put things into perspective. When I replied to emluv‘s comment that race didn’t matter, I was only thinking that personally I don’t care if Khan is dark-skinned, light-skinned, or purple-skinned. It’s just not something I look at when I consider a villain. But now that I have read the article WN cited, I guess I do have to wonder. The question is: should have Cumberbatch not been chosen for the role because he is white? What if he was the best one to play the part? Then again, Uhura is still black and Sulu is Asian. IDK. I guess someone is always on the losing end no matter how the role gets cast.
I want things to be better, but it doesn’t feel like it is when a television show from over forty years ago got it right, but a big budge movie doesn’t. And it’ll only get better if we the fans demand for it to get better. That’s why I can’t let the whitewashing slide. And, yes, it’s depressing that they haven’t once mentioned the change-up in Khan’s casting. They could have at least acknowledged it, you know?
“I am not convinced that BC even needed to be Khan to tell this story.” This, exactly. He could have been anyone else, John could have been his actual name and it would have worked just as well if not better. Khan is a well established character in the Trek canon. He is considered to be Kirk’s main nemesis and rival. He was built to be that. In the AOS universe however he is a catalyst for character growth which is a completely different direction. While I have no problem with an alternate universe doing something different with established characters, I feel it was unnecessary to have Khan. The only reason they did, IMO, is to appeal to Trek fans and to give new fans something they could use to connect with the original storyline. They did it more as appeasement and Easter Egg than any actual contribution to plot. This just cheapens BC’s character, the plot, and the feel of the movie. Added to the all of the points you made and the movie was not as good as it could have been. However, as was stated above, that’s what fanfiction is for. We may not get the movie we wanted but we can still make the story we desired. One silver lining to this whole thing is that those scenes that made this movie progressive existed at all. It’s a step forward. I know we wish that the movie could have done better but at least it’s something. Baby steps.
If “appeasement and Easter Egg” are the reasons JJ used Khan, that’s very, very disappointing. And thank you for pointing out that Khan has been used in a very different way here than in TOS, i.e. for Kirk’s character growth rather than as an arch-nemesis. That difference has been nagging at me but I couldn’t put it into words. Which you did! Since Khan’s role was established for the character growth – and essentially he fulfilled that purpose – I wonder if that means he really will stay in that cryotube until kingdom come? I have to say, that loose end really bothered me, though of course any “disposal” of Khan would have been unethical.
I personally believe that’s why they had Benedict be Khan rather than make him into an original character. It just makes the most sense. They built the plot around him being Khan but there was no need for it other than because they wanted to. If Khan had been written as his original role (Kirk’s nemesis) then it would have made more sense for them to have this character here but having him come into the story this early in Kirk’s life, before really establishing him as a competent captain, would have been pointless and again, playing to Trek fans’ love of the established character. More than likely, unless someone else believes they can use him. Though, with Spock using his crew against him, they’ve left themselves a way to have him come back for revenge which is kind of clever.
Hubby and I felt like they could have done more with the plot, dealt with the internal struggle inside Star Fleet if they’d had him be someone other than Khan. I think the story took a nose dive the minute it’s revealed that he’s Khan. And, yes, I agree with your take on it as Khan as appeasement and Easter egg. Although, I think that’s probably backfired from what little I’ve seen. But, yes, so much fan fiction to fix this. That’s always a good thing. And now fandom has definitely proved itself to be more than capable of writing a better story than high paid screen writers. :D
I wasn’t exactly sure if this was the correct place to post this link but then after reading through comments I see that this might be a useful bit of info. Maybe they are actually tuning in to what us fans are saying..one can only hope they are… http://movies.yahoo.com/blogs/movie-talk/damon-lindelof-admits-gratuitous-star-trek-strip-scene-171222662
Hm. You know, people who don’t find Pine attractive might wonder why they need to see his barely clad self in bed with two alien females… XD I guess it’s all relative. We could just cut out the scenes considered gratuitous… wait, would that mean no Karl in a wetsuit? DAMN IT. I take back my vote!
I’m with you…I’m willing to make the sacrifice …to see wetsuit boys… Also, interestingly enough I read where Pine said JJ mentioned shortly before filming began that he needed to gain weight to come off as “manly” enough. That is no better than telling a woman she needs to lose weight in order to look the part. Pine mentioned they came up with a new verb for when he once again had food stain on gold shirt..He “pined” himself. I think it is quite funny but then it was like the poor guy had to eat and eat to keep the weight on…what a drag..being told you need to look different/better.. Oh well, he is obviously over it..as am I..lol..but it is food for thought..ooh baaddd pun…
Yeah, the first thing I noticed was that he was heavier than normal in the movie. And while I instantly knew that’s because he had to do it for the role, I’m with you on how unfair it is. Why should he have to mimic the image of Shatner’s Kirk like that? I wouldn’t have cared if he was his normal slender self! Heck, we’d just right it off as a high-metabolism thing, or a Tarsus thing…
Yeah…he was on one of the late night shows and said that he was so uncomfortable with the weight because it just wasn’t natural for him… Truthfully, on more than one occassion I stated I thought he looked so much better slender…he isn’t like Karl…bulked up isn’t for him…lol
And yeah, the weight DOES NOT MAKE THE MAN. “Manly”, my ass.
It’s interesting, dare I say fascinating, to me that we come from two diametrically opposing fandom experiences, and yet still can share the same love of the characters that we do, my friend. :) My fan experience began as a very small child watching TNG at nights before bed, because my parents thought it was more wholesome than The Simpsons more than anything else. I fell in love with the idea of space travel, had an enormous child crush on both Captain Picard and Dr. Beverly Crusher at the same time (which is slightly weird to me as an adult, now that I contemplate it). But eventually, I drifted away into the Sherlock Holmes fandom, which pretty much monopolized me for the next decade and a half. I vaguely recall one summer while a teenager, out of sheer boredom coming across a TOS episode on YouTube and deciding to watch it to see what the differences were between what I remembered of TNG and this Original Series I knew nothing about – and I remember being so disgusted with the paper mache planets and blinding Technicolor that I turned it off five minutes into the episode in disgust. Looking back, I can’t even remember what episode it was! Then I decided to try it again while a college student home for the summer one year…actually in 2009, now that I think about it (I knew there had been a new Trek movie, and didn’t care in the least). I was lucky enough to land on The Devil in the Dark as my first episode, and immediately recognized the chemistry between the lead characters – something that I demand out of any fandom I enjoy. From there I went straight to The Doomsday Machine, and then City on the Edge of Forever, and by the time I’d finished that I was hopelessly hooked on Kirk and Spock (McCoy I didn’t quite get yet, but that came later) and thoroughly in love. Watched the entire series in about two weeks, ordered the boxed TOS movie set from Amazon the next, snorted and laughed and cried my way through those, and then sat back in annoyance that the TOS franchise had been canceled after only three seasons. Then, I was on my first trip to London that October, and discovered that one of the in-flight movie options was the Rebooted Star Trek. The trailer looked interesting enough, and so I was excited to give it a try. And two hours later, I was thoroughly disgusted with what I had watched. I am one of those intensely old-school Trekkies, and anyone who knows me knows canon is sacred. And this Reboot? In my opinion was utter garbage. I hated the mind-meld scene (still have issues with it, though I’ve since assimilated it in my headcanon), went WTH at Spock/Uhura, didn’t see the point really in destroying Vulcan just because of the drama factor, hated the fact that there was basically no time for chemistry between the Triumvirate – and worst of all, they had literally rewritten my TOS! My beloved original universe was gone and erased, due to this horrific travesty of a Reboot! I had an AOS-fan friend who was like, “What is wrong with you? It’s a cool take on it!”, whereupon I returned with “In what universe is erasing the TOS a cool take???” I hated the movie. For the first six times I watched it. Six. And then, someone thankfully drew my attention to the fandom theory of the AOS being a splinter universe, rather than having totally rewritten the Original Series. When I could wrap my mind around that, then I began to watch the movie again, and finally one day it clicked in my brain – that these were not the characters I fell in love with in TOS. They might be the same name, have the same basic character traits – but they were totally different characters, motivated by totally different psychologies; and when I realized that, I began to fall in love with the AOS as its own separate identity.
As to Into Darkness itself? I have to admit I was thoroughly entranced, mainly because I went into it expecting it to pretty much shatter my headcanon about this universe. I had just gotten to a point where I thought I was in the characters’ heads enough to love their world which we know so little about, thought I had their psychology down to where I was satisfied – and I thought the new movie would destroy that. Instead, I actually was pretty much dead-on in what I was seeing this universe grow into. Weirdly enough, I am satisfied with what I saw. Do I love everything? Certainly not – the things you mentioned among them. But can I live with it without having to revamp my entire mindset about that universe? I can, actually. Readers of mine know that I refuse to write any fandom which I don’t know inside and out, and in which I am pretty much in the characters’ heads; this was a pleasant surprise, in that I didn’t really have to adjust that much to assimilate this movie. Is AOS still Star Trek? I firmly believe so. Will I ever love it as much as TOS? Probably not – but as someone who fought very hard to hate it in the beginning, I can safely say that it is possible to love them both, for their own peculiar and unique characteristics. They both have those same Great Themes which characterize all literature which impacts our lives and souls – personal morality against society, difficult decisions the consequences which follow them; but most of all, the themes of love and sacrifice, and the immense universal power behind both. Star Trek, in any incarnation, is about just that – the idealistic hope that someday, humanity will have advanced enough that we can live with all walks of life, all preferences and shapes and sizes and beliefs, in the true spirit of IDIC and the deep-rooted love that spans time and space to touch the hearts of people in every generation. /old-school rant
Last paragraph is well-said. That’s what we want in Star Trek, always. Wow, I get now why you could have hated the first movie! It was natashasolten above who said that they knew an attempt to remake something as wonderful as TOS would fail utterly so the work-around was to make an alternate universe. But you didn’t see it as an AU at first, am I right? My gosh. That would make a difference! Frankly I can’t imagine replacing TOS!Kirk with AOS!Kirk. But I can imagine a Kirk that doesn’t live the life as his counterpart does – and that’s what makes it all the more exciting to ponder how that changes him! So, yeah, AOS is definitely more of a “what if” rather than “this is better than that old ’60s stuff”.
Yes, I didn’t see it as an AU at all! I know my literary devices and my sci-fi, and everything I saw basically said that TOS Spock had just made the biggest mistake of his life, and literally rewrote his entire universe, leaving instead these children who had no idea yet whose shoes they were trying to fill. I saw it as a replacement, rather than an alternate – which is why I hated it. It broke my heart to think of TOS!Spock realizing that he’d just destroyed everything he ever held dear in one bad decision, leaving behind this destiny-screwed universe full of darkness and skewed history. I can certainly live with and love AOS as an alternate; I just didn’t see it as that the first few times I watched it. AOS Kirk and Spock are not the same people as TOS Kirk and Spock, and that’s what I was having trouble accepting as a replacement.
Question, KCS: Do you see the AOS characters paralleling their TOS counterparts at any point? For example, once AOS!Kirk has been in command for at least two five-year missions, do you believe time would have tempered his decision-making to be more like TOS!Kirk’s? Or is that a moot point because they are kind of alike already?
Honestly, I don’t see them paralleling much of what we old-schoolers would consider major watersheds in TOS history. For example, it’s my own headcanon that AOS!Spock already thought about attempting the New equivalent of Gol soon after the destruction of Vulcan, in order to deal with the grief and mental trauma; I see him finally rejecting that idea because in order to complete the process, he would then lose that half-human part of him which is the only living reminder of the Lady Amanda. I honestly don’t really see any key similarities between AOS Kirk and TOS Kirk, besides those which were obviously thrown in for the sake of some type of continuity – and I think that’s why I can love both universes equally. Pine’s Kirk obviously brought in some of Shatner’s acting and charisma to the screen, but I really don’t see any similarity between them other than the basic command character traits. Weird, I know – because I do see much similarity between AOS Spock and TOS Spock. But AOS Kirk strikes me as a totally different person (which he is), and so I really don’t see him as making the same types of decisions – at least with the same motivation and psychology behind them – as TOS Kirk would have. Possibly that’s why I really did love this second AOS movie; I saw the command hierarchy and decisions re: the Prime Directive and those consequences as totally plausible, given what I feel about the characters. I tried to touch on this difference I see during my first BigBang fic, which was also the first time I really felt I was in the heads of the AOS characters; that AOS Kirk is a different man, and as such will be motivated by totally different things. I feel that these AOS characters are almost more real in a way, because they have lived that gritty, dark reality which is so vastly different from the sunshine and stardust of the TOS era.
I have to say, that’s really kind of brilliant about Spock and Gol right after the destruction of Vulcan. Maybe you’d write that in detail? :D That’s a very interesting analysis you have of the two Kirks. And you mentioned that the Spocks are probably more similar. But what about the McCoys? :) I think that would be important to determine if there could be the same Triumvirate an alternate universe (which I think you know my answer is fervently YES).
I’m torn, honestly. Because the TOS fangirl in me loves and always will love the Triumvirate – and the AOS fan in me doesn’t see that ever really happening – and oddly enough, I think I’m okay with this. I promise, I went into both XI and ID (what the heck are we abbreviating them as now?) fully intending to hate Uhura’s character – simply because what I’d seen from previews or such made it look like she was just a gratuitous female character added in there to satisfy the non-slashers in the audience. While I still err on the side of Gen, that’s not a treatment I want to see done to any character. I figured she’d just be an extraneous female presence to give a love interest for Spock, and even after the first movie I still was not sold on her at all. However, after I really began to try to dig deeper into this newer universe, I began to formulate this canon in my mind about how their relationships would all work in this universe – and more importantly, how I could live with what I saw developing. Honestly, I saw Spock and Uhura (whether in a relationship or not, didn’t matter in my headcanon) becoming Kirk’s backup power couple, and I think I can live with that given that support in this second movie. *cringes away from Bones fans* I know, I know – it’s sacrilege to us old-schoolers, but I honestly am okay with that switch in the Trinity, in this universe. It works for me, oddly enough. Does that mean I’m happy about the fact that Karl Urban is probably never going to get screen time to a) show his true acting skills, or b) at least give a freakin nod to us old-school Triumvirate fangirls? Not at all. I can live with this switch in main characters, I think, but I regret the fact that it’s going that direction and honestly? I can’t even really bring myself to see it as a Triumvirate-centric universe, if I want to be totally honest. That’s why I love reading fics (like yours!) that prove me wrong, because I can’t truly see it myself – and if I can’t see it, I certainly can’t write it with any conviction. So, as far as determining if there could be the same Triumvirate? Could, yes. I believe there could. But will there be? Not on screen, I don’t really anticipate. Which is why we must, as ever, live vicariously through our friends and fellow writers who happily have the ability to disregard screen as solid canon whenever we see fit. ;) BTW, I saw the movie for the second time today, this time in a fairly deserted matinee theater, and had the silence and the time to really take it in – and while I don’t like a lot of things, I think I can live with it, given that my expectations were set so low in the beginning. (I mean, hello, it’s still a sight better than ST:V, and I still love that horrible movie for the fanservice it was.) And if a fiercely old-school fan like me can love this AOS, the good and the bad together, I don’t see why anyone out there feels the need to attack other fans just because they have a different opinion.
Let me just say, I related to Uhura a lot more in Into Darkness. They’re still pushing the pairing, of course, but that didn’t bother me much this time around. It could have been because I’m acclimated to it – well, as much as I ever will be – or it could be that they at least made the relationship realistic rather than trying to convince us it was a perfect fit. ‘Cause, yeah, that would just never be true. Also, we got to see an intelligent and skillful Uhura, as opposed to the woman who’s dating Commander Spock. So, as far as determining if there could be the same Triumvirate? Could, yes. I believe there could. But will there be? Not on screen, I don’t really anticipate. That’s my thinking too. But you know, no matter how it’s spun in the movies, I will be happily plodding along with an alternate of the alternate – that Kirk, Spock, and McCoy are on their way to a very balanced, very lovely and loving friendship. I will also hope that someday that clicks for you too (and the result is many, many wonderful stories!). BTW, I’m going to be stubborn and go with XII. ID just has too many connotations to sort through, and XII is a good solid number.
I’ll join you in that hope that someday I can actually see it for myself, and that the screenwriters will give us more than just a glimpse or two in the next movie. Honestly, now that I have seen it twice and can analyze a little more in-depth…I think that’s the main reason I was disappointed to find out that the main villain was Khan; Cumberbatch is a fabulous, darkly magnetic actor – he could have been anyone, and he didn’t have to be the trademark giveaway for the entire franchise’s emotional climax. The timing was wrong for that in this movie; if it had been after the five-year mission I think it would have been more palatable for me. Firstly, when a watershed event of this magnitude happens, it needs to have had a logical buildup relationship-wise in my opinion – and there was none of that. And secondly, Khan was, in essence, the catalyst of an unbreakable TOS Triumvirate, whose destinies had finally become so entertwined even Sybok admitted they would be hard to break – and while I can envision the beginnings of that camaraderie happening between Spock and McCoy during the weeks? months? that Kirk was in stasis, WE DIDN’T EVEN GET TO SEE A GLIMPSE OF IT. :( I loved Cumberbatch’s performance and I really don’t have a problem with his race in this instance; he’s got a fabulous voice, and is an obvious natural for dark, enigmatic parts that require a mysterious British accent and dramatic flair. It’s the scripting him as Khan that I’d rather have seen as an original villain, at this point in the AOS timeline. Khan is a crucial part of Triumvirate history, and I just get the feeling that we’re never going to see What Could Have Been due to the choice of scriptwriters who are trying just a bit too hard now, to cater to the old-school audience. I do look forward to seeing the possible Triumvirate fic that results from the incomplete and, I feel rushed, last few minutes of the film. Hmm…
the beginnings of that camaraderie happening between Spock and McCoy during the weeks? months? that Kirk was in Haha. Yeah, I kind of wrote that – well, slashed it. For the benefit of my sanity. That’s why the fic summary reads, “If they weren’t together before, they are now.” I mean, it’s a classic that Spock and McCoy bond over their crazy captain but when said captain has actually died? Yeah. There’s hurt/comfort all around. I believe I said specifically: Leonard and Spock had done what they could to sustain each other until Jim’s return, and now it was time to really live again. So that sums up my feelings about the building camaraderie between them. As for Khan: The more I think about it, I’m not just upset I was played over the identity of the villain, but I really hate the missed opportunity to work with an original villain that could blow us away.
I’m on the fence about whether I prefer AOS or TOS. I wasn’t that into Star Trek before AOS came out, but I would watch re-runs of an episode if it was on and I sat through some films with my parents when I was little. I watched AOS because I knew I liked Star Trek and it was only after watching the 2009 film that I really got into the fandom. I suppose my opinion is that if I want to watch something and have a good time, I watch the raw and action-packed AOS. If I want something deep from the characters, I watch the more personal and meandering TOS. I don’t think Into Darkness was trying to be anything more than an action movie, with a side of development for some characters (we know there’s going to be another film, so I’m not gonna whine too much just yet about only Kirk, Spock and Scotty getting any real development). The movie was made for us to have a good time in a universe that’s dear to us and though I have my issues with it, it certainly delivered. Now, my issues? I had two and one actually became completely irrelevant. I went into that cinema firmly believing that they weren’t gonna dare try and do Kahn. I was one of the prime nay-sayers, with casting decisions being one of the main points. …I kinda got bitch-slapped by my own argument. They totally did dare. I’m ashamed to say I groaned aloud as soon as I heard Kahn’s name, without even giving it a chance before I reacted. But by the time an hour had passed, I found I really didn’t care. I wasn’t frightened of this Kahn; the TOS version of a quiet, back-stabbing menace scared the hell out of me, whereas the AOS one was way too in-your-face with such an obvious threat-level to be able to pull off any kind of suspenseful build-up for me with just his presence alone. But he was definitely engaging and I actually sympathised with this version on a level that I never did with the TOS one. All my worries of Benedict being of completely different ethnic background never even occurred to me after the brig scene (which I’m very happy about, I’d have been disappointed in myself if it did) and I came to appreciate the rawness in his character that seems to be a theme with everyone in this universe. But the one thing that I absolutely loathed, was Spock shouting “KAAAHN!” I can’t even describe why it bothers me, but I’ll have a go. As you likely know, it was a combination of the emotion of the moment, past characterisation of Kirk and Shatner’s acting style that made the original scene work. From anyone else, it would’ve been goofy. But instead it was one of the greatest scenes we’ve gotten out of ‘Trek, ever. The nods to TOS that were hidden in this film were brilliant and I loved Kirk’s death-scene, despite earlier pessimism when I saw the hands-and-glass scene in a trailer. The actors pulled the emotion off brilliantly and the flipping of the roles and the acknowledgement of those roles being flipped by the characters was very clever. It was a beautiful scene. We then see Spock start to be bubble with rage, before: “KAAAHN!” And. I. Laughed. I couldn’t believe it. All the characters are fundamentally different, Spock and Kirk especially. But I couldn’t understand that kind of verbal outburst from Spock, of all people. I still don’t. I expected him to smash his fists against the glass in a nod to his physical lash-out in the first film, as well as a good portrayal of what I’ve come to understand of Vulcan anger: quiet and simmering, until it explodes in strength. That kind of explosion? No, just no. But that was the only thing that bothered me and I can ignore the parts that don’t rub with me. I don’t regret going to see the film: it was great fun. I needed another watch before I really got into the first film and I’d be happy to do the same for this one. The grumps can shut up, or put up. I enjoyed myself and I know I wasn’t the only one. If you don’t like something, bitch to people of the same opinion if you have to get it out, and then pretend it doesn’t exist. The Originals are still there and they’re still canon. Bashing the film and trying to force opinions on other fans is petty and childish. Not to mention it’ll segregate the ‘die-hard’ fans from the general fans even more than they already are.
And. I. Laughed. I actually cringed and shrank back in my chair the first time I saw the movie. I was kind of embarrassed for Spock. I really enjoy that AOS Spock is more emotional than TOS Spock in keeping with the alterations the destruction of Vulcan brought to his timeline. But that was way over the top for me. I was prepared the second time I saw it. Then my husband (a long time Trek fan since the original airings in the 60s), seeing the movie for the first time, snorted and rolled his eyes. Yeah. I don’t think that scene will ever work for me now.
Wow, we must have very similar minds… I had trouble with both those things – the Khan reveal since like you I thought it wouldn’t happen, and Spock’s reaction. dark_kaomi said it best: that Kirk and Spock aren’t that far along in their friendship for Spock’s reaction to transcend his control. More than that, I thought it would have been more poignant if Spock’s anger had been silent and too tightly controlled – the kind we would fear most. It’s my firm belief that if the “KHAAAN!” wasn’t a hallmark of TWOK, no screen writer would have ever considered it as a reaction for a Vulcan. Ever. That just goes to show they were less interested in preserving character traits than on how they could win old-schoolers’ affection. That ploy backfired, I’m pretty sure.
while i pretty much want to find every copy of this film on this earth and set them all on fire for a gazillion reasons (some valid, some silly), i have to say that people who believe that this movie is inferior *because* its aos are probably people who make other tos fans ashamed to be trekkies. i had a conversation with an otherwise nice guy in my local used bookstore before the movie came out, and he was all fire and brimstone about aos, and wouldnt even give the movie a chance. anyone with an attitude like that isnt worth considering as far as fandom goes. but then, i grew up CONTINUOUSLY out of sync with fandom trends around me, and if its taught me anything, its that other peoples opinions on the things i like, whether fair and alike or foul and divergent, have no bearing on my ability to enjoy something. and to extend that, i find that i can absolutely detest parts of my fandom and still love it. to me, saying that tos is better than aos because of the massive amounts of fail that i percieve in this movie is like saying that i love my niece better than my youngest nephew because he has to pee standing up.
people who believe that this movie is inferior *because* its aos Exactly! I mean, the TOS writers themselves introduced the concept of an alternate universe when they did the episode Mirror, Mirror. I just… I don’t want to feel disappointed in my fellow TOS-ers but sometimes they leave me no choice…